The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. You fire lots and lots of them through das maschinepistole and drown em in hot metal until they fall down and stop trying to kill you. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. True, Or not? The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. So banter on gentlemen. Officer Needs Help!!! Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. If you cant always hunt effectively with it, is it big enough? Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. I was in the military and was law enforcement. Lexipol. 10mm. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. Because size is king? Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. Another, was a 300lb black bear. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. The damage was far too extensive. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. Hi, I have both. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). Startle affect. spot on ! Great little weapon !!! Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Glocks are cheap and reliable. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Along that line of thought, I bought my tiny little 24 year old niece a pistol when she moved to Kansas by herself. Damage: 62. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. this was the part I couldn't wait to get to and dissect. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. They ability to kill. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! Unless they needed concealablity. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. I know this is off topic. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive I like all of them. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. The victim died immediately. Shot placement is the deciding factor. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. The .22, meanwhile. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. There will always by that guy who can take several shots before dropping, and there will always be that perfect head shot. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. But thats a subject for another article. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. Both are great calibers. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . Sorry for the rant. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. If you want to test that theory in a real world environment. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. The Human Torso Test. Of course shot placement is important. Okay all handgun are garbage. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. I just had to get my 2 cents in. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. Model. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. Black Talon ammunition was Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. Really late to the discussion. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. I doubt a .45 would have allowed that.also know a guy who took 10 shots of 9mm at close range in a robbery and survived and is healthy and surfs, shooter must have had terrible aim. Another may be more easily rattled, where a head shot is possible but still iffy. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! You might be able to talk to the first guy. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. Obama wants us dead. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. Really lets cut to the chase. I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. So they fudge the data. and love a SA trigger. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. They found that their guns wouldnt stop the insurgents charging at them, until seconds or minutes after the bullets entered their adversaries bodies. I see your point. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. and departments. George. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. Now that you know where I am coming from. the statement that a 9mm can carry more bullets. True. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. There were no exit wounds. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. for every day carry. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. False. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO.